Rank Big 12 Basketball Jobs

Discussion in 'College Sports Talk' started by SoonerLawyer29, Mar 11, 2017.

  1. SoonerLawyer29

    SoonerLawyer29 Fanatic

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    It's pretty tough after #1.

    1. Kansas
    2. Oklahoma
    3. Texas
    4. Oklahoma State
    5. West Virginia
    6. Iowa State
    7. Kansas State
    8. Baylor
    9. TCU
    10. Texas Tech


    I feel like you could argue pretty much any order for #2-8 and you wouldn't be wrong.

    I put OU at #2 because the Sooners have an all-time winning record against everyone except KU and we've had the most tourney success of any program in our league (other than KU) over the last 40 years and under multiple coaches. Add in proximity to DFW, usually getting first pick of in-state kids, and one of the richest ADs in the country... and there you go.

    I went back and forth on putting Texas at #2 because of their recruiting potential, but I don't think that gap is wide enough over OU to overcome having less historic success. Maybe once they build the new hoops facility down there I'd bump them up to #2. Overall I feel like Texas is to the Big 12 as Florida is to the SEC. They're just waiting on a Billy Donovan down there in Austin.

    If OSU makes a FF run under Underwood, before OU or UT makes another one, they might get bumped to #2. But the tourney success in the last 20 years is more sparse than I would have thought after looking more closely. So I might need to see an extended Underwood run to make that move. I do think OSU's tradition has bigger names in the history of the sport (Iba, Sutton.) Pokes also have national titles in the trophy case and OU and Texas don't. If they weren't so old, that would have outweighed other factors for me. GIA is a better facility, with a richer history, than the one Texas and OU play in.

    WVU was next on my list because I think they have a slight edge on ISU and KSU historically and because I think recruiting is an easier job in Morgantown than in Ames or Manhattan, KS. Their AD also has more money than either of the other two. If they make an Elite 8/FF run this year, and OSU doesn't, WVU's case against OSU gets a lot better.

    So that puts my rankings in the weird position of having the 2nd and 3rd best supported programs in our conference at #6 and #7, respectively. ISU outranks K-State with respect to fan support, so they get the nod. Neither school has the recent tourney history that you'd think, though ISU has won the Big 12 tourney a bunch of times now. Neither AD is top half of the conference with respect to revenue. Neither location is great from a recruiting standpoint. So both jobs are actually pretty tough gigs. High expectations with less resources than your slightly less interested peers within the #2-8 club.

    Baylor is #8. Almost exclusively because of the Drew era and its location. Fan support is pretty weak. Tourney history is pretty weak. But Waco is in recruit-rich central Texas. If they win for ten more years under Drew, or win at a similar level under another coach, BU might fly up my list because the potential is so high.

    TCU is #9. Great recruiting location. Great new facilities. But fan support, tourney history, etc., are all major negatives. But if Dixon brings about an SMU-ish rise (and he might) then the sky is the limit for TCU hoops.

    Texas Tech #10. Location is tough (both OK schools are closer to DFW and Houston.) Fan support is so-so. AD revenue is weak. Not much NCAA history to speak of. This isn't a terrible job but it's probably the toughest job in our conference now than the Huskers are gone. Probably says something about this league that frickin Bob Knight and Tubby Smith both thought that the worst job in our league was worthy of their time.
     
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    #1 SoonerLawyer29, Mar 11, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  2. Glock 87

    Glock 87 Booster

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    1. Kansas


    2. Texas
    3. West Virginia
    4 Oklahoma

    5. Baylor

    6. Texas Tech
    7. Oklahoma St

    8. Iowa St

    9. Kansas St


    10. TCU
     
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  3. SoonerManiac

    SoonerManiac Fanatic

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    Much more accurate. I love OU, but they are a fringe top 20-30 program in the last 10-20 years.
     
  4. SoonerLawyer29

    SoonerLawyer29 Fanatic

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    Last 40 years:

    Final 4s:

    Kansas - 8
    Oklahoma - 3
    Oklahoma State - 2
    Texas - 1
    West Virginia - 1
    Iowa State - 0
    Kansas State - 0
    Baylor - 0
    Texas Tech - 0
    TCU - 0

    Sweet 16s:

    Kansas - 21
    Oklahoma - 10
    Texas - 7
    Oklahoma State - 6
    West Virginia - 6
    Kansas State - 5
    Iowa State - 5
    Baylor - 3
    Texas Tech - 2 (missed a 3rd by 1 year)
    TCU - 0

    NCAA tourney appearances:

    KU - 34
    OU - 27
    Texas - 26
    Oklahoma State - 19
    Iowa State - 18* (includes this year w/ auto bid)
    West Virginia - 18
    Kansas State - 16
    Texas Tech - 9
    Baylor - 7
    TCU - 2


    Last 20 years:

    Final 4s:

    Kansas - 4
    Oklahoma - 2
    Oklahoma State - 1
    Texas - 1
    West Virginia - 1
    Everyone else - 0

    Sweet 16s:

    Kansas - 12
    Oklahoma - 6
    Texas - 6
    West Virginia - 6
    Iowa State - 4
    Oklahoma State - 3
    Baylor - 3
    Kansas State - 1
    Texas Tech - 1
    TCU - 0

    Tourney appearances:

    Kansas - 20
    Texas - 18
    Oklahoma - 15
    Oklahoma State - 13
    West Virginia - 10
    Iowa State - 10* (includes this year w/ auto bid)
    Kansas State - 6
    Baylor - 6
    Texas Tech - 5
    TCU - 1
     
  5. SoonerLawyer29

    SoonerLawyer29 Fanatic

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    Last 10 years? Maybe. We've had two NPOYs, three Sweet 16s and Final Four in that span of time, though. Last 20 includes a bunch of Kelvin years when we were a regular Top 25 fixture, made the tourney just about every year, won the Big 12 tourney 3 times, and played in another Final 4.

    http://www.ncaa.com/video/basketbal...l-programs-without-title-houston-kansas-state

    OU is probably on the very short list of "most successful programs all time without a title." It says a lot about the quality of the job, too, that just about everyone who coaches in Norman has success. Dave Bliss won a Big 8 title. Billy Tubbs had OU as a Top 5 fixture in the late 80s (three straight 1 seeds.) Kelvin churned out 20+ wins year after year, won the Big 12 tourney three years in a row, and coached in a Final Four. Jeff Capel made an Elite 8 - and it would have been a Final 4 if we aren't in UNC's bracket. Lon Kruger has a Final 4 trip now, too.

    Does look like my rankings probably over-valued Oklahoma State, though. I'll flip Texas and OSU. The Longhorns have had more success than OSU in the modern era. I think I slept on how many Sweet 16 trips that Rick Barnes made.
     
    #5 SoonerLawyer29, Mar 12, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  6. JayhawkInVegas

    JayhawkInVegas Fanatic

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    That is really hard...

    Obviously Kansas

    then...

    Hmmm. Thats hard. I agree that OU is the better school historically if looking at consistency. However Texas is probably the better job if looking at just raw potential from boosters and recruiting.

    I have come to notice something. You meet a Kansas fan and they love basketball, but range all over the place for the other sports. This is true for North Carolina or Kentucky. At a place like Oklahoma or Florida, they love football and then its all over the range for the other sports. Only at Texas do I really see a fan base that just doesn't give a shit what they are rooting for as long as their is a cow skull slapped somewhere on the uniform. The just love the Longhorns. Doesn't matter which ones, just as long as something Texas is winning, swimming, baseball, golf, frisbee, etc. They just love to do their hand thingy and yell Hook Em.

    So I would probably go with the slight edge only on recruiting potential:

    2a Texas
    2b Oklahoma

    4 West Virginia (I could flip 4 and 5)
    5 Oklahoma State (Personally they have the second best coach in the conference, someday maybe the best. They are the team that will end the Jayhawks' streak. Mark it)
    6. Iowa State (6, 7 and 8 are interchangeable)
    7. Tech (potential for great fan support. Nice arena. Texas talent.)
    8. Baylor (Although they are really good as a team, I still think Drew would be doing better at almost any other team in the conference. Weak support.)
    9. K-State (They whiffed on Underwood, enough said)
    10. TCU (That might be changing. In that market they should be a major powerhouse.)
     
  7. ally cat

    ally cat Fan

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    I always gain perspective when on the internet. I realize you all must be pretty young.
    You probably don't realize this but Kansas State has traditionally been a basketball school. If you don't know, our football team used to not be the powerhouse it is today. Our basketball history is only clouded by two indefensible hires at the turn of the century, but before that we had Dana Altman, Lon Kruger and a history of great coaches. Why do you think Bob Huggins wanted to come here? That is not a bottom 30% of the conference.

    I am 90% a basketball fan and there are tons of people like me. Wildcat basketball has a much more passionate core than you are giving credit for. Tex ass Tech is easily the worst job.

    1. Tex ass - Nobody can touch the $
    2. Kansas - Excellent tradition, but will never be Tex ass when job opportunity goes.
    3. Iowa State - Passionate fans.
    4. Kansas State - Tradition
    5. Oklahoma - 3rd best tradition in the Big XII
    6. Oklahoma State - Great tradition a long time ago
    7. West Virginia - Not much history or tradition, but a good coach
    8. Baylor - Chokers
    9. TCU - Wright has them on the right track
    10. Tex ass Tech - I spent a month in Lubbock one afternoon.
     
  8. SoonerLawyer29

    SoonerLawyer29 Fanatic

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    Not too much to disagree with here (and I wrestled with putting Texas at #2 for the same reasons you put them there.) I do wonder though what realistic expectations for OU basketball recruiting should be. I think realistic expections are higher than the average fan's perception. It's hard to look at it fairly with crimson colored glasses, but between in-state kids and the deep talent pool in Texas, not to mention the lack of blue blood in the state of Texas, I'm not sure why OU can't consistently recruit Top 20 classes or better.

    Kelvin Sampson couldn't recruit. That's his biggest weakness as a HC. He kind of painted our program's perception as one where we need to win with three stars who have a lot of heart. Billy Tubbs recruited NBA talent. Lon Kruger is doing the same thing. So I lean toward thinking Kelvin was the anomaly.
     
  9. SoonerLawyer29

    SoonerLawyer29 Fanatic

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    In the last 40 years, K-State is 7th in the conference in tourney appearances. The 70s and prior were great in Manhattan, though, but that tradition is in a retirement home. The Golden Gophers have great football tradition, too, but that doesn't make that a good job.
     
  10. ally cat

    ally cat Fan

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    Through the 70's? Ever heard of Mitch Richmond or Michael Beasley? I think they both went pretty high. I am not going to defend Tom Asbury and neckbrace, they fucked up bad and are THE ONLY REASON why I need to explain to millennials that when they were growing up, yes Kansas State was bad, but other than that we have the 2nd best basketball tradition in the Big 12. This isn't even up for debate. You are highlighting are worst two decades with your 40 year comparison. Maybe we should use the 90's to determine the best football jobs?
     
  11. NJAggie

    NJAggie Fanatic

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    Well I'm going to go ahead and take a swipe at this one. The main thing I'm looking at is the ability to recruit there, basically how many top recruits the schools can realistically land. I don't think there's a bad job in the conference, I do think we have some schools that have already had more recruiting success than others, and thus for a new coach coming in, that is the key. Followed by facilities, tradition, and fan support which all feed back into donations and recruiting success that helps a coach win.

    1. KU as they have the facilities, tradition, and recruiting pipeline going.
    2. OSU again it's facilities and tradition, Underwood just needs to get the recruiting going. Sutton didn't recruit well, but Sean did, and landed a #1 class before he had to resign. Ford was able to land (and waste) a top 10 class, and I think Underwood will be able to as well.
    3. UT Money and they're UT. Location and Name mean a lot. I also don't think there's enough desire to
    4. OU They have tradition and reasonable facilities. I think the football focus of the dept, school, and fans hurt a bit here. The support is solid, but it is always #2.
    5. WVU They have the closest access to the fertile east coast recruiting grounds
    6. ISU has the east coast pipeline as well, but they've got to get those kids to come further than WVU does so that's why the Mountaineers slipped past them here. They also have great fan support.
    7. Baylor we've had one coach have success there, they have the facilities and location to be a good option for a coach. They would go higher if the next coach produces.
    8. KSU The Wildcats are in the same boat we're at in football. No matter how much they do they run into an in state juggernaut.
    9. TCU a real lack of tradition puts them in a tough position in this ranking. Dixon may win here, but again it's going to be tough for them to move up until he does and a 2nd coach recruits and wins. Their location puts them ahead of Tech.
    10. Tech A roller coaster tradition with more low flats than peaks. Combine that with probably the worst location (not a knock on Lubbock) it's just too far from the recruits they're going to have to have sustained success to really recruit there.
     
  12. NJAggie

    NJAggie Fanatic

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    Hey nothing wrong with KSU's history, but putting in more years doesn't help your case.

    KSU has 28 appearances with 4 final fours
    OU has 30 appearances with 5 final fours
    OSU has 27 appearances with 6 final fours and 2 championships.

    So I don't really see much of a case that says KSU clearly has the 2nd best history.
     
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  13. SoonerLawyer29

    SoonerLawyer29 Fanatic

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    :chin

    And who played in the Final 4 the last time Mitch Richmond wore a K-State uniform?

    Generally speaking, the "modern era" of college basketball is deemed to be the Magic/Bird championship game. Some people look at the advent of the 3 point line. Either way, I rounded it to 40 years. But as Aggie pointed out, you can go back farther and it doesn't bolster your argument all that much. It sure as heck doesn't make K-State a clear #2. You match up more favorably with OU if you go farther back, but you also see the Pokes hanging a couple of banners, too.
     
  14. SoonerLawyer29

    SoonerLawyer29 Fanatic

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    After looking at 40 years of results, my big issue with Oklahoma State is wondering why only two coaches - two of the best in history - have had major success in Stillwater. A lot of other guys have struggled there (which accounts for multiple long drought eras.) But yeah. GIA is an elite building. You can't discount Final Four history and a pair of national title banners.

    I think the football focus works against Texas and OU. But I'm wondering whether that will start coming into play for OSU, too. Hard to say OSU is a hoops school nowadays. Hard to say that about K-State, too, though the attendance figures at KSU provide more backup for their argument than at OSU.

    I started this topic because I thought you could reasonably make this rankings list go several different directions. Good to see that happening. Lots of parity in the Big 12 on the basketball side.
     
  15. ally cat

    ally cat Fan

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    You guys aren't getting it. I am saying if you take out the years we were terrible in the late nineties are early 2000s FOR EVERYBODY our numbers are better. We just lost so much ground that now we have fallen behind. Again, I am not defending it. That is our fault, but most young people can't see past life before Huggins.

    Putting us in the bottom is pure ignorance.
     
  16. SoonerManiac

    SoonerManiac Fanatic

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    Kentucky can't touch Alabama's money, but I wouldn't pick Alabama over Kentucky any day of the week.
     
  17. VideoBear

    VideoBear Season Ticket Holder

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    ally cat, you are hysterical already. Baylor chokes? So by your own admission, KSU beating Baylor means Baylor choked, not that KSU played well?
     
  18. Glock 87

    Glock 87 Booster

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    I agree with him.
     
  19. Glock 87

    Glock 87 Booster

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    I admit you are the better basketball and football school. I still think we are the better jobs. I wear burnt orange glasses too.
     
  20. SoonerLawyer29

    SoonerLawyer29 Fanatic

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    Here's my issue with the Texas job (and this applies to basketball and football.) All of the advantages of that job have always been there. Money. Recruiting footprint. Great city to recruit to. Great academics. And yet the Horns have decade after decade of not producing at the level that should be expected given those advantages. In addition, Texas either doesn't hire HOF coaches in the revenue sports, or they've had really bad luck with hires, or those HOF type coaches don't want to be in Austin for some reason. At some point don't you have to ask "is there a non-obvious part of that job holding UT back in some way?" My guess is that BMD/administration politics make that Texas job a lot harder than it appears to be from the outside.

    That aside, my big issue with the UT job is that the facilities (surprisingly) are pretty substandard. That will change in the not too distant future but it's holding the program back right now.
     

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